I've add ISAF Case 75 for reference. I have it on good authority that this will be in the new case book with updated rule citations.
At 3 boat lengths Yellow is overlapped inside Blue on a course directly to the mark. At position 2, Yellow heads up slightly to make more room to round wider and sail close hauled at the mark. At position 3 Blue hails Protest! You’re taking too much room! At position 4 as Yellow gybes her stern swings into Blue’s boom. There is no damage or injury as a result of the contact, but Yellow’s daughter, who is crewing, nearly has a heart attack and vows never to sail with her father again unless there is money involved!
1. At position 1 who has right of way?
2. At Position 3 what rule(s) does Yellow break?
3. At Position 4 what rule(s) does Blue break?
4. At Position 4 what rule(s) does Yellow break?
5. What Rule limits the room Yellow can take?
6. Who should be DSQ: Yellow, Blue, Neither, Both?
7. What redress is Yellow entitled for his daughter’s psychological 'damage'?
I've moved the intended answers to the comments to save space.
Why, oh why did I open the pandora's box of 'psychic damage'?
ReplyDeleteIn case you all didn't know, Dick was the guy that asked US Appeals Question 98, which became ISAF Case 110.
1. Yellow has both right of way (11) and mark-room (18.2(a))
ReplyDelete2.None, by (11) she can sail where she pleases
3. None, by sailing wide Yellow has relinquished the right to mark-room.
4. 14
5. None, as long as she is ROW. Then 18.4 kicks in.
6. Yellow, for 14.
7. A slot on the Dr. Phil show.
1. Yellow is ROW boat rule 11 and is entitled to mark room from blue.
ReplyDelete2. None provided she gives blue room to keep clear per 16.1 when she changes course.
3. I think differently here than Anon and will say that Blue breaks Rules 14 and 18.2(a), and maybe rule 11 if yellows turn was not moderate.
Anybody want to comment if it is I or Anon that has got this right?
4. 14 but is exonerated by 14(b). And maybe 16.1 if she turned to rapidly but then is exonerated by 18.5(b) anyway.
5. What Rule limits the room Yellow can take? 18.4
6. Again I differ with Anon. Blue DSQ rules 14 and 18.2(a).
7. As Brass has said it must be a physical injury. In fact the US Sailing judges manual has this to say about “loss of concentration” which may be in the same category as the BISF daughter’s panic attack.
Paragraph 7.03.3 of the 2005-2008 US Sailing Judges Manual says in part;
When deciding whether a boat is entitled to redress under 62.1(b), a PC must conclude that
the boat suffered damage or injury. Contact with another boat without damage or injury that
results in a loss of finishing place doesn’t qualify for redress. The damage must be
physical. The loss of concentration due to a crash tack doesn’t qualify.
As Brass notes Case 102, which is actually a composite of elements from US Sailing Question 98 and US Sailing Question 73, addresses this issue.
Oops I meant as Brass indicated, Case 110 not Case 102.
ReplyDeletefor Q1 &2: I agree with Dick,
ReplyDeleteQ3: Blue breaks 18.2(b; there's an overlap when Yellow enters the zone.
Q4: Yellow starts of as row boat but as soon as she gybes, becomes keep clear boat.
She will be exonerated by RRS 18.5(b) but does she break a 16.1 or does she break rule 10?
From the diagram I would choose RRS 10.
Q5: Again I agree with the above: RRS 18.4
Q6: DSQ Blue for 18.2(b); not giving mark room.
As to rule 14, I have more doubts. Who could prevent the contact? Blue? Perhaps. If she had given more room to Yellow and kept clear... But at the moment the contact occurred she was - in my opinion - starboard row boat and can not be penalized as row boat unless there's damage.
Yellow also might have broken RRS 1. It was her stern swinging into Blue.... But again she cannot be penalized if there's no damage, because she was entitled to mark-room.
Q7; no physical damage influencing the result = no redress
effing keyboard!
ReplyDeletefor RRS 1. read RRS 14.
Thanks to JOS for his comments.
ReplyDeleteRe Q3. Ok 18.2(b) works for me.
Re Q4 comments by Jos. Ah Ha! It did not register with me previously that after the gybe yellow is the keep clear boat. Good point.
Re Q6 comments by Jos. I think I understand. In which case, from a rules interpretation would it be proper to say; if yellow did not gybe, but sailed by the lee, until after the contact then blue would break 14 and could not be exonerated?
Q1 to Q4, agree with Jos. Key thing is to observe the transition when Y gybes.
ReplyDeleteAgree with Jos that Y does not break rule 16.1 @4: facts found say that @4, when contact occurs, Y has already gybed onto port, Y is not ROW boat, so cannot break rule 16.1.
I have no doubt that B could have and should have avoided contact: B was required to give Y mark-room.
* If you use the round-about analogy, @3.8, once Y starts bearing away to gybe, thus changing course towards the mark, she is 'in the round-about' and is _at_ the mark, and B must give her room to sail her proper course, which under the new rules, implicitly includes room to gybe, contact occurred in the process of gybing.
* If, contrary to the round-about analogy, the PC was convinced that @4 Y was sailing _to_ the mark, but not yet _at_ it, then I would say that rule 18.4 obliges Y to gybe @4 to sail _to_ the mark, and room to sail to the mark includes room to gybe to do so in accordance with rule 18.4.
Maybe B could just sneak out of trouble if she could prove that contact was caused by poor seamanship, such as a round-up out of the gybe by Y, so that Y was not sailing her Proper Course, but it would be a long shot.
So much for B breaking rule 14. I agree with Jos that B, as ROW boat is protected from penalty by rule 14(b).
Dick is right, if Y had changed course as shown, with contact, but had sailed by the lee to do so and not gybed, then Y remains leeward boat, B is windward, give way boat, with no rights to room, and on contact B breaks rule 14 without any chance of rule 14(b) protection.
As to Y breaking rule 14, Y, as a boat entitled to mark-room, is not required to act to avoid contact if it is not clear to her that B is not giving room. A small error of judement on Y's part: gybing a little too close to B would not put Y in the position that it was clear to her that B was not giving room, so Y does not break rule 14, at all. If a PC found that she did, she would be protected from penalty by rule 14(b).
Question 5: rule 18.4 up until Y gybes, then rules 18.2(b), rule 18.5, mark-room, and proper course.
I agree with Jos on Q6 and Q7.
BISF Ed,
ReplyDeleteI don't want to be argumentative, but are you saying that you don't think it's a good idea to say that a boat entitled to mark-room, is 'limited' to taking only the mark-room to which she is entitled by rules 18.2 and rule 18.5 where by taking more room she would break one or more of rules 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16?
Could you explain what you consider the down-side of using this language is?
You made my point with your last comment. The only boat that will be penalized under 18.2 is the boat required to give mark-room. The boat entitled to mark-room will be penalized for breaking one of the rules in part A or B. Review Appeal 20 that I posted. WI was DSQ for Rule 11 not 18.2. 18.2 puts limits on the boat obligated to give mark-room not the boat entitled to it. In fact the rule allows the boat entitled to mark-room more latitude than she would normally have under the rules of Part A or B.
ReplyDeleteIf you are the ROW boat entitled to mark-room 18.2 has no effect on where you can go at all. In this scenario Yellow could have sailed Blue off the course, but for Rule 18.4. 18.2 posed no limitations on her, it gave her additional rights to sail to the mark and her proper course at the mark unencumbered by Yellow. Once she gybed if she becomes windward boat, then she needs to worry about Rule ll. But Rule 18.2 allows her more room to maneuver than she would have without it. I view it as an expansion of her rights not a limitation on them.
In short, the rule limits the rights of the outside boat, and expands the rights of the inside boat. If you try to take more than the already expanded rights offered under 18.2, then you are penalized by the Rules of Part A and B not 18.2.
Thanks BISF, I follow you.
ReplyDeleteI guess another way of saying it is Section B and Section C rules (except rule 19.2(c) are rules imposing Limitations on Right of Way boats, and we should keep 'limit' to that meaning.
By the way, Dick, Jos, and I seem to be taking up a considerable amount of this Blog with fairly arcane judge-stuff. I wonder if that is freezing-out your regular fleet members? If you think it's a problem, please let us know and we can take the judge-stuff to Jos' blog. PM me on Sailing Anarchy if you wish.
See the Decision under the exhibited Case 75 (old rules).
ReplyDeleteIP or IS will now NOT be protected for making a hard luff to move onto her direct line _to_ the mark because rule 18.5 only gives exoneration from rules 10, 11, 12, and 13 while sailing to the mark. Exoneration from rules 15 and 16 is only available _at_ the mark.
That's right they are making you follow the normal right of way rules of A and B when you are ROW and have mark-room except at the mark.
ReplyDeleteI should have said at the mark sailing your proper course.
ReplyDeleteAfter I posted I got your point Brass. In the old case, SI is exonerated for her luff that was not in compliance will 16 because 16 was turned off since she was "about to round" the mark. It will be interesting to see if they consider that as part of her maneuver to sail to the mark and giver her exoneration for it under 18.5, or will she be thrown out under Rule 16. I think it will be the former, but we will see.
ReplyDeleteI don't think they should: changing course away from the mark cannot be said to be sailing to the mark. Once they decided to limit the exoneration from rule 16 to only while sailing proper course at the mark, why should they change that carefully thought out allocation.
ReplyDeleteWell then I guess her luff will have to comply with Rule 16 just like anywhere else on the course. It will be interesting to see what they do.
ReplyDeleteI moved my intended answers to reduce the post size:
ReplyDelete1.Yellow Rule 11
2.None, She is ROW boat entitled to mark-room so she can head up as long as she complies with 16.1, which she does.
3.Rules 14 and 18.2(b). She is required to give Yellow mark-room, which includes room to sail to the mark. In order for Yellow to sail to the mark she must gybe so Blue must give her the room to gybe and she did not. She could have avoided contact so she breaks 14.
4.Rule 10 - As far as Rule 14 is concerned, based on the facts, the contact occurred as a consequence of Yellow's stern swinging into Blue's boom as she finishes her gybe. She could not reasonably avoid the contact once it was clear that Blue was not providing enough room. Yellow does not need to anticipate that Blue will break a rule but only react after it is apparent Blue is not going to live up to her obligations. My conclusion in this case is that there was no time to react to avoid the contact after it was clear that Blue was not giving adequate mark-room.
5.Rule 18.4. In the absence of Rule 18.4 yellow could continue on starboard as long as she pleased. Just ask team racers who sail under Appendix D, which deletes 18.4. I didn't think of 18.2 but, I don't think I agree with Brass on this one. After the gybe (if blue also gybes to round the mark) if they are overlapped it would be rule 11 that limits her not 18.2. 18.2 limits how high Blue can sail when she is the leeward ROW boat and Rule 11 limits how low Yellow can sail as a give-way boat entitled to mark-room. At position 5 she is clear ahead, and again a ROW boat entitled to mark-room so 18.2 does not limit her in the least. It is an obligation on Blue to give mark-room in this scenario not Yellow.
6.Blue for Rule 18.2, but she is not penalized for the contact by Rule 14(b). Yellow is exonerated for her breach of rule 10 by Rule 18.5
7.Those of you who don't think redress is appropriate for his daughter's psychological damage, have not met my daughters.
Is yellow entitled to room for the whole mark rounding? She is still rounding the mark after the jibe. Is the mark rounding over for Yellow when her stern clears the mark on port?
ReplyDeletenike air force 1
ReplyDeletetory burch shoes
kobe basketball shoes
michael kors handbags
nike air huarache
Kanye West shoes
adidas ultra boost uncaged
nike huarache
cheap jordans
reebok outlet