What do you think of this one.
The Intended answers from US Sailing are:
1. Yellow breaks Rule 10.
2. Blue breaks no rule
3. Yellow is not exonerated for breaking Rule 10 because she does not do her turns in accordance with Rule 44.2.
The explanation given by US Sailing is that Yellow must first get well clear and then do two uninterrupted turns. If this were to occur in one of our races I do not believe I would be compelled to protest Yellow unless there was some sort of advantage gained. In the scenario shown I see no advantage to Yellow. It is not always easy to anticipate what others are going to do in a race and as the boat doing the turns you are required to keep clear of others and if that obligation requires you to sail clear I'm satisfied if you interrupt the turns to keep clear. If the turns were done as shown in the absence of other boats then I would protest.
1. Y breaks rule 10. Y does not break rule 44, because, except for 44.1(b), it is not possible to 'break' rule 44.
ReplyDeleteBut Y does not comply with rule 44.2. Because she substantially interrupts the taking of her second turn, she has not made her turns 'promptly'. If Y is so close to the oncoming starboard tackers that she cannot complete her two turns and still keep clear of those other boats, she has not got 'well clear' of them before taking her turns. Y has thus not taken a turns penalty in accordance with rule 44.
2. B breaks no rule.
3. If there is a protest, Y is disqualified.
Y breaks rule 10.
ReplyDeleteBlue breaks no rule.
Neither boat is DSQ’ed. Yellow exonerates herself with a two turns penalty.
Brass's answer sounds to simple, to easy. Too good to be true? I suspect the BISF guy has something up his sleeve and is being clever with us.
So, I have read and re-read rules 44.2 and 21.2 a zillion times (ok maybe like 15 times) and come to the following interpretation.
As Brass says, 44.2 does say that yellow has to get well clear of other boats. However, I would argue that when yellow starts his penalty turns he has chosen and sailed to an area that is well clear of other boats, at that time.
Like a clear ahead boat, who does not have to anticipate that an overlap will be gained by a clear astern boat, yellow does not have to anticipate that the area he has chosen to do his turns will fill with other boats that he will be required to keep clear of. But, if and when that occurs yellow then has the obligation to comply with rule 21.2, after which, yellow may continue his turns as long as he does so promptly, which he does.
No rule says that a one or two turns penalty turn is invalid if a boat has to act to keep clear during the execution of the penalty turn(s)
Suppose the three black boats weren’t there, and after yellow has started taking her turns, a port tack boat tacks to starboard and is sailing towards the area where yellow is doing her turns and is on a collision course with yellow. Yellow would have to interrupt her turns to comply with 21.2 and keep clear, after which, she may promptly complete her turns.
Yellow did make the turns promptly albeit momentarily interrupted by his need to comply with 21.2.
Ok Dick, you have convinced me.
ReplyDeleteDoes this discussion help?
44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing.
A boat is not 'taking a [turns] penalty' (and thus subject to rule 21.2) until she begins changing course to make the turns. She is not 'taking a penalty' while she is 'getting well clear of other boats', unless in doing so she is also changing course to make the turns.
A boat that intends to take a penalty, has full rights to sail an advantageous course, advancing towards the next mark (provided she begins to do so as soon after the incident as possible), until she is 'well clear of other boats', at which time, she must promptly begin to make her turns.
If a boat sails further than 'well clear of other boats' before beginning to make her turns, she does not begin to make her turns promptly (and does not comply with rule 44.2).
As long as she does not break a rule, a boat that may have broken a rule may take her turns in a way advantageous to her, for example by going around a starting mark to comply with rule 30.1 (Case 108).
Promptly does not mean 'instantly' or 'uninterruptedly' (Yachting Australia Appeal Review YNSW0508). Latitude should be allowed.
'Promptly' means 'without unreasonable delay'. Delay in completing turns caused by complying with a rule 21.2 obligation to keep clear of other boats racing is not unreasonable.
Logically, 'well clear of other boats' does not mean 'so far clear that she can make her turns without ever again having to take action to keep clear of other boats, before her penalty turns are complete', otherwise there would be no point in having rule 21.2.
One of the purposes of requiring a boat to take penalty turns promptly is to assist a protestor in being aware of whether or not the protestee has taken penalty turns. A delay in completing turns, such that the protestor becomes unable to tell whether the turns are done or not would be unreasonable.
It may be that a protest committee could safely decide that
• A boat that sails an advantageous course in respect of the next mark, further than 'well clear of other boats' before beginning to make her turns, has not done so promptly and has not complied with rule 44.2, allowing latitude for a prudent judgement of 'well clear', including sufficiently clear to complete all turns without other manoeuvre to comply with rule 21.2.
• A boat that sails a course to get well clear of other boats that is not advantageous towards the next mark should be allowed more latitude in terms of 'well clear' and 'promptly' than a boat that sails an advantageous course.
• A boat that interrupts her turns, and sails an advantageous course in respect of the next mark before completing her turns has not made her turns promptly, and has not complied with rule 44.2.
• A boat that interrupts her turns, and sails a course that is not advantageous in respect of the next mark, for not too long a time, does not fail to make her turns promptly and has complied with rule 44.2.
BISF Ed: Any comments?
BISF Ed,
ReplyDeleteIs the US Sailing 'explanation' in the US Appeals, or some other accessible document?
They reference no appeal or case and I can find none. Further, I see nothing in the rule, cases or US appeals that says the turns must be "uninterrupted".
ReplyDeleteI take it, then, that the US Sailing 'explanation' was part of some judges training material.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that 'promptly' does not mean 'instantly' or 'uninterruptedly'. This was recently decided in a Yachting Australia appeal here
YA Appeal YNSW 0508Situation was that _Razor's Edge_ fouled _If_ in pre-start, and also became OCS, _Razor's Edge_ sailed off and completed turns penalty around the starting line pin so as to start correctly. State Appeals Committee held that the re-position did not constitute failure to take the penalty promptly, which, as you can see was upheld in the National Review.
I am exactly with the BISF guy on this one. Unless the person explaining US Sailing's position want's to identify himself and step up to the plate to explain why he's right and the BISF guy is wrong.
ReplyDeleteDick