Let's see how the rules work with a down wind start.Well our fleet has gone sailing and not giving answers, any takers on the following: This situation is changed to a downwind finish. Answer the same questions.
The point of this exercise was to think about how the rules and result are different when Rule 18 doesn't apply when approaching the starting mark surrounded by navigable water when approaching to start, and when you apply Rule 18 when it is a finish mark. You should have noticed that the resulting boat being DSQ can be different in the 2 cases depending on the facts. Let's look at this again with the next scenario.
Q1. Yellow, rule 10.
ReplyDeleteQ2. Blue breaks rule 10 and rule 31.
Q3. None
Q4. DSQ blue.
So is this a trick question? Or is there something about blue gaining a significant advantage by avoiding contact with yellow and a subsequent two turns penalty or, gaining an advantage by "Barging" and hitting the RC boat and doing one turn rather than gybing away or heading up to pass astern of yellow?
I agree with Dick.
ReplyDeleteIf this would happen in a MR, I would penalize Blue with at least one red....
But Match Racing is never - well at least not to my knowledge - with a down wind start.
So two turns on the water for Blue and if Yellow protested, I would seriously consider a rule 2 penalty
I can't see enough facts to reach B breaks rule 10.
ReplyDeleteJos, under MR rules:
There's no Y flag, so you're only penalising for rule 31.
Why the red flag? Y starts and finishes in control. (Dick, thus B does not gain any advantage by her breach)
Jos, remember that umpires can't penalise under rule 2, they give their penalty under rule C8.3(c).
But muffing a bear-away round the start boat is seamaship, not sportsmanship. Where's your evidenced of B's mental state?
Brass said. “I can't see enough facts to reach B breaks rule 10.”
ReplyDeleteBoy, from what I see in the diagram it sure looks like yellow had to change course to avoid contact with blue, right?
About a Rule 2 foul. I am inclined to side with Brass on this.
Blue does not break rule 31 with the intent of making yellow’s score worse but as Case 78 says; “ to benefit her own series results”. I think Case 34 also talks to this issue. Is there a rule that says you cannot break a rule if it will benefit your own score?
Also, in a Question our club posed to US Sailing (not published) regarding rule 2 they had this response.
Question: Was there justification for the protest committee to conclude that “Who Me” broke Rule 22.1 (new rule 23.1) or Rule 2 when cruising back and forth along the start line during the start sequence of another class, when no starting boat protests?
Answer: No. There was no clear evidence that “Who Me” was not competing in compliance with
Recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play! Moreover, rule 2 requires that any violation
of these principles be "clearly established."
And, as I think Brass might be saying, a violation of the principles of sportsmanship and fair play is not clearly established in our Scenario 5,
From what I see Y is perfectly happy with allowing B to go off and do his turn for breaking rule 31.
ReplyDeleteY tells me this by not flying a protest flag.
All I can deduce from Y bearing away it that Y wants to cross the starting line in the direction of the first mark at the starting signal.
I think Brass is on a reach when he says he does not see blue breaking rule 10. And now, is he trying to extricate himself from this position by saying yellow has not protested? If yellow has not broken rule 10 then I am in serious need of help in these matters.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I assumed in these BISF Scenarios, which present a diagram of the incident and give facts found, that we were past the validity stage and the proper protests were made on the water. If that is not the case perhaps we need a SI that says so.
But now, considering that I have previously said blue has broken 10, and having now taken a peek at the match racing rules C2.5, C6.2(c), C7.2(2), and C8.2, and which I am not familiar, then my earlier question as to whether blue has gained an advantage by hitting the mark rather then gybing or passing astern of yellow seems misplaced. What advantage would there be to blue to breaking 10 or 31 since the penalties are the same for 31 and 10 per the MR rules? And is the fact that 16.2 is not applicable in MR is of some relevance as to why blue has made the choice she has?
I think this was a trick question because it wasn't a rule 18 scenario at all because Section C doesn't apply to a starting mark at all. I agree that Blue should be DSQ. I disagree with Brass that Blue didn't break rule 10. Yellow was required to alter course sooner than she would have if Blue hadn't been there.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Scenario where it is a Finish rather than a start. Rule 18 now applies and Yellow does not give adequate mark room to Blue so I would DSQ Yellow if it was a finish mark.
To be more precise I should have said it doesn't apply to a stating mark surrounded by navigable waters when approaching to start.
ReplyDeleteDownwind finish.
ReplyDeleteQ1. Yellow is ROW rule 10. Blue entitled to mark Room rule 18.2(b).
Q2. At pos. 2 Blue breaks rule 31. At pos. 3 none.
Q3. At pos. 2 and pos. 3 Yellow breaks no rule.
Q4. DSQ Blue rule 31.
From the diagram it appears to me that yellow is giving blue enough room under 18.2(b) to pass between her and the mark if blue were to trim her main sail to avoid the contact with the committee
But here is my predicament. Does 18.2(b) entitle a boat to room for it’s sails in their normal position? If yes DSQ yellow.
Or, is it not un-seamanlike for blue to manoeuvre (trim the sails) promptly to avoid the contact?
Mark-room is room to sail a proper course (to finish fastest). That includes having sails optimally trimmed, but @2 B could have taken more room round the RC boat. At the time of the contact there was enough mark-room: maybe a couple of instants late there wasn't.
ReplyDeleteThe key here is that Yellow must give Blue "room" to sail her proper course at the mark. Room is the space a boat needs in the existing conditions to maneuver promptly in a seaman like way. To maneuver in a seaman like way also includes the ability to properly trim your sails. You cannot say that Yellow fulfilled her obligations under 18 if Blue is required to over trim her sails to clear the mark.
ReplyDeleteHowever, in this case it appears that Blue had room to sail wider to clear the mark with her sails properly trimmed. Given these facts and diagram I would not DSQ Yellow if this was a finish mark.
Thanks Anom and Brass for solving my predicament.
ReplyDeleteI now understand that the room Blue is entitled to includes the room she needs to properly trim her sails.
I meant to include the following question.
ReplyDeleteBrass and Anon comment that it looks like there is enough room available for blue to sail between yellow and the RC with her main sail trimmed out and clear the RC boat.
So now in the protest room the decision falls on the PC to conclude uif there was or was not room, right?
If the boats are J30's (beam 11 feet) the diagram suggests there is approximatey 11-13 feet of space between blue and yellow. If the boats are lightnings (beam 6.5 feet) the space between yellow looks to be about 7-8 feet and if they are 420's (beam 5.4 feet) the space looks to be 5-7 feet.
So what factors, other than wind and sea conditions and boat speeds,would you as a member of the PC consider to conclude if there was or was not enough room given?
1. Blue
ReplyDelete2. NOne
3. 18.2
4. Yellow
Dick said...
ReplyDeleteSo what factors, other than wind and sea conditions and boat speeds,would you as a member of the PC consider to conclude if there was or was not enough room given?
Boat handling characteristics, expectations for crew work, whatever else the parties gave evidence about at the hearing.
Anonymous said... February 19, 2009 7:08 PM
1. Blue
2. NOne
3. 18.2
4. Yellow
OK, we can agree to disagree about whether Y gave B enough room, but how do you make B on port ROW over Y on stbd @ position 1?
Well that is a problem for Blue, they should have jibed over to starboard after they cleared the mark as they had inside overlap. However they were preoccupied by Yellow not giving initial room as well as not giving enough room for the boom in a completed jibe after the fact. Summary: BLue is exonerated Yellow DSQ
ReplyDeleteExpanding on Anon's comment about blue gybing to starboard.
ReplyDeleteEven if blue were to gybe to starboard isn't yellow still ROW by rule 11?
But if blue were on starboard he would easily clear the RC boat and yellow would have to keep clear of his boom. But, blue should gybe before position 2 because it is my understanding that in this situation yellow does not have to give blue room to gybe his boom as blue's proper course would be to continue sailing on the angle he was on or maybe dead downwind neither of which requires a gybe? Would gybing to sail by the lee sailing be blue's proper course?
And finally for me am I correct with the following statements?
1.If the jury concludes that blue was not given enough room then yellow will be DSQ'ed for breaking 18.2(b)and blue will be exonerated for breaking 31 under 64.1(c) and 10 under 18.5(a) or 18.5(b)!
2. If the jury concludes that yellow gave enough room to blue then blue will be DSQ'ed for breaking 31 and 10!
In response to Dick's comments,
ReplyDeleteFirst, based on the wind direction, a gybe couldn't be completed till near the finish line. All this action occurs within 2-3 boat lengths of the finish.
Once in the zone port yields to starboard provided that room has been given to complete a gybe through the finish line. I don't see that with a 14' star boom.
Earlier this month a video with the Farr 40's finishing illustrates this very example. Maybe the editor can put that back up so we could see an example.
Yellow is sailing a hotter angle and trying to close the door on Blue. However, Blue has room to the mark based on 18.2b (inside overlap) In regards to blue hitting the mark we don't know the boats thought in the matter as not enough time or room has elapsed since the event based on 44.2.
Ask and ye shall receive. The Farr 40 crazy finish is re-posted.
ReplyDeleteAnon said;
ReplyDelete"Once in the zone port yields to starboard provided that room has been given to complete a gybe through the finish line. I don't see that with a 14' star boom."
I would agree that there is not enough room for a Star's boom to gybe.
But my question is. Is a Star or any boat, that is entitled to mark room under 18.2(b), entitled to room to gybe the boom if gybing the boom is not a boats proper course (fastest way to finish)?
It seems to me in our scenario that a gybe by blue is not it's fastest way to the line but rather holding course or shooting the line would be it's fastest way to finish neither of which require a gybe. I can't see blue gybng, in the absencce of yellow, as blue's proper course.
I did look at the Farr video again and again and again and see the similarity to our scenario but am unable to see if the starboard tack boat is or is not giving enoughing room to what appears to be three port tack boats.
Re-read the definition of proper course.
ReplyDeleteIf Blue has the choice of hitting a finish mark and having to do a one turn penalty and re-finish, or sailing slow without hitting the mark for one boat length, by which choice will she finish as soon as possible?
Re Brass's comments.
ReplyDeleteOk, so gybing the main would be faster than doing a one turn penalty. And so would trimming the main to avoid the RC boat be faster than a one turn penalty, and heading up to avoid the RC boat would also be faster than a one turn penalty. And, it would seem to me that either of these actions by blue would probably be seconds faster than gybing the main. So which one is the proper course?
I seem to be stuck on saying that gybing was not blue’s proper course leading to use of my confused logic to conclude the following.
The definition of Room says, “…manoeuvring in a seaman like way” not “…manoeuvring on it’s proper course.” To hit the RC boat would not be seamanlike but trimming the sail to avoid the contact would be seamanlike. In which case Yellow gave blue room to be seamanlike. Whether yellow gave blue room to sail her proper course depends on what the jury decides was her proper course. If gybing was her proper course then probably DSQ yellow but if it were determined that trimming the sail or heading up to clear the RC boat would have been faster, and thus blue’s proper course, then DSQ for rule 31.
Proper Course says, “…in the absence of other boats referred to in the rule using the term.” Is the committee boat or a mark another boat referred to in the rule?
It is probably always a boat’s faster way to the finish by not touching a mark or breaking any rule that will require turns. But can the consequences of a penalty be considered when determining a boat’s proper course?
Brass, now you're being cute. Blue's proper course is the course that she would sail "absence" of the other boats referred to in the rule. Which in this case is Yellow. So the choice of hitting the mark and doing a turn, or over trimming her sails has nothing to do with Blue's proper course. She would do neither of those things in the absence of Yellow to finish as soon as possible. Unless you want to claim she is not a competent sailor. To say otherwise would mean that all Yellow needs to do is just barely give Blue enough room for her hull and force her to pull in her main to clear the mark. This would clearly not be giving her room to sail her proper course at the mark as required in Rule 18. I assume you already know this, and are just baiting Dick.
ReplyDeleteDick, I can't be convinced in this case that gybing would be faster than not in the absence of Yellow (unless there was a big wind shift). Looking at the diagram, by the time Blue is in a position to gybe she has already crossed the finish line. One might claim that her proper course could be to stay on a close reach past the mark and not turn down. The only problem with her taking this course is that she would no longer be "at" the mark and, therefore, not protected by Rule 18. She still has to keep clear by Rule 10. As give-way boat she is only entitled to sail her proper course at the mark.
I'm not trying to be cute. No amount of effort would do it. But I guess being a little provocative doesn't make me cute.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid that we're moving right away from discussing rules to speculating about time and space on a little tiny diagram.
What I was trying to point out to Dick was that once Blue got into the position where, on port, with her boom fully out she was going to hit the RC boat, her proper course was to avoid hitting the RC boat. To do that she might well have chosen to gybe: maybe hardening in would have risked a round-up and stern-kicking the RC boat. To decide whether or not a boat has sailed above or below her proper course you have to ask questions and listen to evidence from parties and witnesses: it's no good dreaming and sterilely arguing.
You raise an interesting point, however. All the old case law was about boats limited to sailing their proper course. There's never been any consideration of a boat being prevented from sailing her proper course by a boat required to give her room to do so.
I sort-of think this problem is played out.
Time for a summary and move on.
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