Yellow and Blue were sailing toward the finish and Yellow was sailing faster and overtaking Blue. At the zone Yellow was clear astern of Blue. At 2 lengths from the mark Yellow became overlapped with Blue and asked for room at the committee boat. Blue hailed protest and sailed on her course until just before she finished and turned up to give Yellow enough room so that her hull could clear the committee boat but Yellow’s boom hit the committee boat and she hailed protest.
I have posted the definitions on the side bar for your reference when looking at the scenarios.
I have to admit that I called this a rule 19 scenario to highlight that when an obstruction is a mark that rule 18 not rule 19 applies unless it is also a continuing obstruction. In this case the RC boat is not a continuing obstruction so 19 does not apply. I did catch one commenter on this, but most were not fooled.
The Intended answers are as follows:
1. At position 1 who has right of way? - Blue by rule 12
2. At position 1 who is entitled to mark-room? - Blue by rule 18.2(b)
3. At position 2 who has right of way? - Yellow by rule 11
4. At position 2 what rule(s) does Blue break and what rule(s) does Yellow break? - Blue Breaks no rule; Yellow breaks no rule. My reasoning here is that Blue is initially allowed room to keep clear by rule 15 so she is not breaking rule 11 at position 2 because she has not yet had time to react to Yellow gaining right of way, and Yellow is not so close at position 2 that Blue can't keep clear. We can disagree about when exactly when Yellow breaks 18.2(b), but my interpretation is that it will occur when Blue can no longer sail to the mark, and Blue has not yet altered course to avoid Yellow at position 2.
5. At position 3 what rule(s) does Blue break and what rule(s) does Yellow break? - Blue breaks rule 11 and Yellow breaks 18.2(b) and rule 31. Blue did not keep clear of Yellow at position 3 and Yellow did not give Blue mark-room.
6. Who should be DSQ, Yellow, Blue, or both? - Blue is exonerated for breaking rule 11 by 18.5(a) because of Yellow's failure to provide mark-room. Yellow is DSQ for breaking rule 18.2(b). She was compelled to hit the mark by Blue breaking rule 11 and can be exonerated for this by rule 64.1(c), but not for breaking rule 18.2(b)
On the subject of losing exoneration. I do not agree that it is lost when Blue finishes. It is clear that Blue breaks rule 11 because of Yellow's failure to give mark-room even after she finishes. Rule 18 does not have a specific time when it turns off and as long Blue needs mark-room she should be given it by Yellow. I am relying on Dick Rose's paper for this interpretation where he says (see the link on the side bar):
"When rule 18 ceases to apply: The old criterion for rule 18 ceasing to apply (when the boats ‘have passed’ the mark) has been deleted and not replaced. The new rule’s principal obligation, for one boat to give another mark-room, applies until it is no longer needed."
In this case mark-room is no longer needed when Blue clears the finish mark.
1. At position 1 who has right of way?: B rule 12
ReplyDelete2. At position 1 who is entitled to mark-room? B rule 18.2(b)
3. At position 2 who has right of way? Y rule 11
4. At position 2 what rule does Blue break and what rule does Yellow break?
B breaks rule 11, but is exonerated under rule 18.5.
Y breaks rule 18.2(b): she is not giving B room to sail to the mark: her course is above the mark.
5. At Position 3 what rule does Blue break and what rule does Yellow break?
@3-delta, the instant before B crosses the finish line, B is breaking rule 11, but is exonerated under rule 18.5 because she is sailing her proper course at the mark.
At the instant B crosses the finish line, she ceases to have a proper course, because she has finished, and her entitlement to exoneration under rule 18.5 for breaking rule 11 ceases (but we are still at a mark, so rule 18, not rule 19 applies).
At that instant when B crosses the finish line and loses her exoneration, she becomes liable to take a penalty and if no Scoring Penalty is provided, then she must either retire or to take a rule 44.2 turns penalty and cross the finish line again.
The instant after this happens, supposing B does not retire, B has 'unfinished', she is still at the mark, nothing has switched off her rule 18.2 entitlement to mark-room, and the existence of her proper course is switched back on with her proper course defined as the course she needs to sail to get well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, during which time she has full rights until she starts 'making the … turns'.
Seemingly that proper course is now to harden up and eventually to tack – gybe – tack – gybe then finish.
Once B begins to harden up, she is sailing away from the mark, so she no longer requires mark-room, and her mark-room entitlements will change depending on when she tacks and whether she goes outside the zone
Y breaks rule 31. She may be exonerated under rule 64.1(c) if the protest committee finds she was compelled to hit the RC boat by B breaking a rule, but she is still carrying a penalty for not giving B mark-room @2, so Y also needs to do 2 turns, then finish correctly.
6. Who should be DSQ, Yellow, Blue, or both?
If neither does turns: Both
1. Blue rule 12.
ReplyDelete2. Blue rule 18.2(b).
3. Yellow rule 11.
3a. Blue breaks none at this exact moment. Yellow breaks 18.2(b).
4. Blue breaks rule 11. Yellow breaks 31 and 18.2(b)
5. Blue is exonerated for breaking rule 11 by 18.5(a).
Yellow is exonerated for breaking rule 31 by 64.1(c).
Yellow DSQ for 18.2(b).
I am having a bit of a problem getting my head around Brass’s reasoning as to blue loosing her right to exoneration under 18.5(a).
The definition of Proper Course does not say a boat has no proper course after she finishes but only describes what that course would be.
While blue may have “finished” she is still “racing” until she clears the line and the mark and so is still entitled, under 18.2(b), to Mark Room and thus, “room to sail her proper course while at the mark”. Blue is at the mark until she leaves it clear astern and so will continue to be entitled to the exoneration given to her by 18.5(a) until she has left the mark clear astern, or tacks, or leaves the zone.
A second thought to my earlier post.
ReplyDeleteWho would like to offer an opinion on the following observation as to whether blue has even broken rule 11 since he left yellow enough room for her hull to pass between her and the RC boat?
We all probably understand that a boat being on it’s close hauled course in rule 13 is determined by it’s compass heading and has nothing to do with the trim of it’s sails.
So, does a boats proper course likewise have nothing to do with the trim of a boat’s sails but rather just it’s compass heading? In which case yellow was not entitled to leave her sail out if she could easily trim in the main to avoid the contact with the RC boat.
Does ISAF Case 21 say or suggest that yellow, who had room for her hull, was not denied room by blue since yellow could have easily trimmed her sail, in a seamanlike way, to avoid the contact, when the Case 21 Answer ends with the following?
“The phrase ‘in a seamanlike way’ applies to both boats. First, it addresses the outside boat, saying that she must provide enough space so that the inside boat need not make extraordinary or abnormal manoeuvres to sail her proper course while at the mark. It also addresses the inside boat. She is not entitled to complain of insufficient space if she fails to execute with reasonable efficiency the handling of her helm, sheets and sails while sailing her proper course.”
Oh boy. My last post about yellow where I inferred she was entitled to mark room was at best chaotic. Of course she is not entitled to mark room. So my whole postulation about Case 21 and having to trim sails is probably not appropriate.
ReplyDeleteBut now, I think I see what road the BISF guy is leading us down, eh?
Does the room that blue has to give yellow under rule 11 include room for just the hull or does it include room for yellow’s sail to be eased out?
Now, I will await the comments of others.
But I still think that blue is entitled to mark room till she leaves the mark(RC boat) astern and does not lose that entitlement when she finishes.
Dick,
ReplyDeleteProper course is defined as a boat's course 'to finish as soon as possible'. Once a boat has 'finished' she cannot still have a 'course to "finish as soon as possible"'. Proper course becomes degenerate and ceases to exist.
I say that @2 B breaks rule 11 because boats are so close that Y cannot change course to windward without immediately making contact with B. I'm inferring that fact from the diagram. Minds may certainly differ about how close they were. But Y could certainly put it beyond doubt by giving evidence that Y bore away to avoid contact.
Rule 11 has nothing to do with 'enough room'. I think that @3, it is beyond doubt that Y cannot change course to windward to avoid contact with the RC boat without making contact with B. And if B's rule 18.5 exoneration is gone, Y can take her all the way up to head to wind, and her only protection is rule 16.1.
A boat's close hauled course is not dependent on her compass course. It is dependent on her course relative to the wind (and the boat's characteristics). True, it is not dependent on where the sails are, so a boat can muff her tack and come to close hauled with headsail flogging and losing speed: she has nevertheless completed her tack.
A boat's proper course is the course to 'finish fastest' so to speak. So if a boat steers a course that is not matched to the trim of her sails, such as by coming up to close hauled faster than her crew can trim, she will not be sailing 'fastest' and not sailing her proper course.
In this scenario there is no issue of Y's proper course or of whether Y was given enough room. B has mark-room. Y has no room entitlement at all.
Case 21 says, that where an outside boat owes mark-room she must give enough space so that the 'inside boat need not make extraordinary or abnormal manoeuvres to sail her proper course'. Overtrimming a mainsail is, in my opinion an 'abnormal manoeuvre'. On the other hand, if an inside boat accidentally started her mainsheet and hit the RC boat, that would indicate taking more room than was seamanlike.
Brass Said..(but we are still at a mark, so rule 18, not rule 19 applies).
ReplyDeleteThis is not correct! Rule 19 is not turned off at a mark both rules are applicable. B breaks 19.2 and Y breaks 18.2(b) B was not compelled, she could have given room to Y at the obstruction which is also a mark. She therefore can't be exonerated by 64.1(c).
DSQ both Y and B.
Indeed, rules 18 and 19 can operate together near a mark but the only time rule 19 applies concurrently with rule 18 near a mark is where there is also an obstruction other than the mark, such as a right of way boat.
ReplyDeleteSee rule 19.1 'Rule 19 applies between boats at an obstruction except when it is also a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side (and is not a continuing obstruction). The whole of a rc boat, surrounded by navigable water, from which a finish line extends is a mark (definition of mark).
I stand corrected.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree that B can lose her exoneration when she finishes. 18.5(a) says you can be exonerated if you break a rule of Part A because of the other boats failure to give you mark-room. There is no mention of proper course in this part of the rule only that the other boat didn't give you mark-room. In this case they are passing the mark not rounding it so I don't see 18.5(b) even coming into play. Y needs to give mark-room until B has cleared the mark and is no longer racing.
ReplyDeleteI thought the "tactical rounding" discussion indicated that you only had rights to mark-room (and by implication 18.5 exoneration) as long as you sailed a proper course. I would argue that B is not sailing proper course (as if Y were not there), but is sailing a tactical course, cognizant of Y's position, and intended to squeeze Y off the finish line.
ReplyDeleteRadio Newbie
'Racing.
ReplyDeleteA boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and mark...'
Blue is still 'racing' after the finishing gun, as described in the definition.
She therefore still has a proper course after the gun until she clears the line and the mark.
I suggest that nothing is turned of at the finishing signal and that Blue is entitled to exoneration under 18.5.
Having said which, it would have been wise to call protest and then make sure Yellow had plenty of room to avoid contact, but not a leg to stand on at the protest.