We will now review at a few cases looking at how the new Rule 19 works.
Yellow, Blue and Green were sailing on a run with Yellow and Blue approximately a boat length apart. At position 1 Green is clear astern of both Yellow and Blue. At position 2 Green, sailing faster, obtains an overlap with both Yellow and Blue. When the overlap starts there is not adequate space for Green to pass between Yellow and Blue. After the boats travel approximately 2 hull lengths Yellow must alter course to keep clear of Green. At no time does either Green of Blue alter course.
Questions:
1. At position 1, who has right of way Yellow or Green?
2. At position 2, who has right of way Green or Blue?
3. At position 3, what Rule(s) were broken by Green?
4. At position 3, what rule(s) were broken by Yellow?
1. Yellow, clear ahead
ReplyDelete2. Blue, leeward.
3. None. Green is the ROW boat, and is properly hailing Yellow to give her time to keep clear.
4. None. She kept clear, albeit with a complaint.
I don't see how Rule 19 comes into this at all. Blue is not an obstruction to Green because Green can pass her without substantial course change. But, hey, I'm just a
Radio Newbie
1. At Pos. 1, Yellow has ROW under Rule 12. A boat clear astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead.
ReplyDelete2. At Pos. 2, Blue has ROW under Rule 11. When overlapped, the windward boat shall keep clear of the leeward boat.
3. At Pos. 3, Green did not break any rule. If Yellow were just any boat, Yellow would be an Obstruction. In that case, Green would have violated Rule 19.2(c) against Blue, as Green sailed from clear astern into a position in which there was not sufficient room for her to pass BUT, Yellow is not just any boat. She is racing, and under the definition she is not an Obstruction. As soon as Green obtains an overlap, she has ROW over Yellow. A long way of saying that Green violates no rule at Pos. 3.
4. At Pos. 3, Yellow gave Green room, who didn't have to alter course, so Yellow violated no rule.
Vicky
I agree with Radio Newbie’s and Anon’s answers.
ReplyDeleteQ1. Yellow is ROW, rule 12.
Q2. Blue is ROW, rule 11.
Q3. Green breaks no rule.
Q4. Yellow broke no rule as she has complied with the requirements of rule 11 and rule 19.2(b), as she was obligated to.
But I have a different take on who is and who is not an obstruction.
Blue is an Obstruction to both green and yellow. Yellow, who has ROW over green, has chosen to pass blue to starboard, rule 19.2(a). Since yellow is the outside boat she must then give room to green, the inside boat, to pass between her and blue, which she does, rule 19.2(b).
Green is an obstruction to Yellow and blue is an Obstruction to green But since no boat is overlapped between yellow and green or between blue and green rules 19.2(a) and 19.2(b) are moot between green and yellow and between blue and green.
And then at the risk of putting my foot in my mouth I will make an attempt to address Radio Newbie’s comment that; “Blue is not an obstruction to Green because Green can pass her without substantial course change.”
This is exactly what I thought and said just one week ago. But I have since attended a rules seminar where I was put back on the straight and narrow. Blue meets the two requirements (for a boat racing) of the definition of being an Obstruction with regards to green because 1. Blue is an object that a boat, any boat, could not pass IF she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull lengths from it. And 2, because blue is a boat racing that green must keep clear of. What got me with the definition before is the subtle and almost esoteric use of the word IF in the definition of Obstruction.
Then, Anon says; ”If Yellow were just any boat, Yellow would be an Obstruction. In that case, Green would have violated Rule 19.2(c) against Blue, as Green sailed from clear astern into a position in which there was not sufficient room for her to pass BUT, Yellow is not just any boat. She is racing, and under the definition she is not an Obstruction. As soon as Green obtains an overlap, she has ROW over Yellow.”
I think that because of her size yellow would be just a plain obstruction and 19.2(b) would apply between blue and green, if yellow were not racing. In this case blue, the outside boat, would have to give green, the inside boat, room to pass between her and yellow. I am not sure that yellow would qualify as a continuing obstruction and invoke 19.2(c) between green and blue unless yellow were the Queen Mary or the USS Forestall, at anchor.
I think you all missed an important thing in the new definition of obstruction. It says a vessel underway including a boat racing is never a continuing obstruction. So, 19.2(c) will not be in effect even if it is a vessel not racing including the Queen Mary unless she is anchored and not underway. But you better follow the coll regs or you'll get tossed by the preamble to Part 2.
ReplyDeleteDick said:
ReplyDelete"What got me with the definition before is the subtle and almost esoteric use of the word IF in the definition of Obstruction."
Subtle? Try Kafkaesque :-)
Radio Newbie
Guys, there is a plain definition of 'obstruction'. It may contain several cases and criteria, but it's not post-modernist literature.
ReplyDeleteDick,
If Y is not racing she is an obstruction. If she is racing she is not an obstruction because boats to leeward are not required to keep clear of her.
That was the point I was trying to make. Blue is an obstruction to Green because Green couldn't pass Blue if Green was sailing directly toward Blue within one boat length. (doh). But Green isn't sailing directly toward Blue, Green is sailing parallel and clear. Your seminar folks say that doesn't matter, because of the the "if" clause then we have a Rule 19 situation, even if the two boats plug along like that all the way to the finish. So Green can call for room she doesn't need.
ReplyDeleteSo every ROW boat is an Obstruction to any burdened boat in the vicinity, and those burdened boats can therefore invoke Rule 19 to force third parties to give room, even if the burdened boats don't need that room to keep clear of the ROW boat. I dunno, that really does sound like something Jacques Derrida would write :-)
Radio Newbie
Newbie said. ”So Green can call for room she doesn't need.”
ReplyDeleteI don’t think green is calling for room she doesn’t need. I think she is calling for room she is entitled to under 19.2(b) which is only the amount she needs to pass between yellow and blue (the obstruction).
Newbie said. “So every ROW boat is an Obstruction to any burdened boat in the vicinity..”.
I think so. Just like any floating dock anywhere on the race course every ROW boat that is racing is an obstruction to a keep clear (burdened) boat. But, 19 does not come in to play at the floating dock or the ROW boat until a third boat arrives on the scene and needs the room whether they are sailing towards it or just passing it.
Newbie said. “, and those burdened boats can therefore invoke Rule 19 to force third parties to give room, even if the burdened boats don't need that room to keep clear of the ROW boat.
I hope I did not say that. In our scenario green and yellow are both keep clear boats but only Green can invoke 19 with yellow, if green needs the room to pass between yellow and blue, since she is the inside boat. If green does not need the room 19 is probably moot and green just sails on by. Yellow cannot invoke 19.2(b) with green at this point but could have invoked 19.2(a)earlier when deciding on which side to pass blue.
I don’t know Jacques. But after looking him up I am inclined to suspect the writers of the Racing Rules of Sailing probably consulted with him. I would probably have consulted with Yogi Berra if I were writing the rules.
I am no expert in these matters so I will sprinkle my foot with a little sugar before I take another stab at my interpretation of the obstruction definition and obstruction rule.
I think Blue, a boat racing, will continue to be an Obstruction to green as they sail merrily along for as long as green is “required to keep clear of her or give her room or mark room” since, green does not have to be actually sailing towards blue for blue to be an obstruction. But, green has no requirement to do anything under 19 until such time another boat, “Mr. Squeezer” shows up and becomes overlapped with green from clear astern, between green and blue (the obstruction), while passing blue. Then, green has to give “Mr. Squeezer” room to do so, “unless green has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began”.
I think under the 2008 rules yellow would not have to move aside for green (if there was not room at the moment the overlap began) because blue would have been a continuing obstruction in 2008. But now, yellow has to give green room because there is nothing to windward of her that would prevent her from doing so, 19.2(b).
If the rules say so then that’s the rule.
Dick said:
ReplyDelete"I would probably have consulted with Yogi Berra if I were writing the rules."
Actually, I'd hire a psychic and try and hook up with Harold Vanderbilt, who did a pretty decent job of rules writing, back in the day :-)
IMHO, this business of overlaying Rule 18 with Rule 19 is going to lead to an awful lot of unnecessary complication.
Radio Newbie
Actually I think the rules are pretty good and that the rules writers have done a great job. It just seems to me that because they try so hard to minimise the total words used in the rules, so as not to be redundant, they expect we likewise, will see what is obvious to them.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I think they must be hooting and hollering as they are sitting, watching and waiting to see if we can finaly figure out what is as plain as the nose on their faces to them.
I'm afraid I disagree. I think the rules have evolved into a document by the rules industry and for the rules industry, piling complexity on complexity. Look at that bizarro Q&A Jos just put up on his site. It takes my toy boat about 10 seconds to go from zone boundary to the mark. In that time I'm supposed to sort out that decision tree, steer, trim sails, and set up for a rounding. But protest committees, rules explainers, and seminar organizers have all the time in the world to engage in theological disputation.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, under the old Vanderbilt rules Jos' Q&A takes about three lines to explain, and there is absolutely no ambiguity.
Apologies for drifting off topic. Serve us another case, please, maestro.
Radio Newbie
Literary references aside, the purpose of this scenario was to show how the obstruction definition has changed and now a vessel underway including a boat racing is never a continuing obstruction.
ReplyDeleteUnder the previous version of the rules Green was not entitled to room to pass between Blue and Yellow because Blue was considered a continuing obstruction. This silliness is now gone and Green can intervene provided she complies with rules 15 and 16 and Yellow is able to provide room when the overlap begins.
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